Boring Book Boar

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Crunchums » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:37 pm

Skeletor wrote:i didn't further look into weather there were 8 streamers
>: 3
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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Skeletor » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:55 pm

:D
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Rylinks » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:15 pm

Skeletor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:43 pm
the_zoomies wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:22 am
Skeletor wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:08 am i think the reason they added 8 player lobbies is in the hopes that streamers would use them to play against each other, to try to get an among us effect going

(or barring that at least with their audience, but that seems like a distant second)
You're the expert here, but this was really surprising to me.

Am I overrating my own experience here?

I had a tremendous time in a game I would _never_ have tried without friends. Card games are really sticky and really hard to get into, right?
you might be right as well, or neither of us could be right, it's always hard to guess what motivated something when you only see the result. but i'll infodump my thinking

i would expect among us to be on the top of any scrappy company's mind (which i assume SBB is) when working out how to get their little game to take off

among us was an accident, of course, but you can look at it and go, this two year old game totally took off when it started getting streamed, and it was streamed in this new way that other games haven't been, is there anything we can do enable this possibility? my take: among us just doesn't really work very unless you're playing over voice with people you know, so streamers needed to play with each other to play it. i think this made sort of a network effect within the streaming community; some giant streamer is on, they want to play with 9 other streamers, all with fewer followers of course. the lesser streamers are chomping at the bit to play in the game that has 60k viewers on the top stream, hopeful that some of those viewers will also end up following them. and the viewing experience was better, too, because you might want to switch between streams during the game to see who's the impostor, or maybe you specifically want to watch the impostor all the time, or whatever. then when the top streamer goes offline, the game continues, viewers can transition to someone they were already kinda watching. and a new streamer enters the arena, causing kind of a waterfall effect from the top streamers downward

i don't really think sbb has the right ingredients for this. for one, it has a ladder and it's totally fine to play without friends, so it's totally fine for streamers to play it normally, and in fact they're incentivized to do so in order to have an impressive leaderboard number. but it does resemble among us at least in that it's a compact, repeatable, somewhat short game that's fun to play with voice on, and that might be more fun as a viewer if you can switch between streams in the same game, even if not to the extent that among us is

ok, then on the flip side, why was i not really thinking of this feature as one that was pushed toward normal people playing with friends? basically because i think this almost never works. in my experience it's usually a vocally requested feature for games that almost nobody uses if the game is totally acceptable to play without friends. friend play does get used in games where the game sucks without friends, but in games where you can just jam whenever you want, i think these features just go unused. and i think it vexes developers, who would obviously love if people would play with their friends because that makes games both stickier and easier to on-board, but i think developers also mostly know that nobody's worked out a great way to get it to happen except in team games (where it's also a barrier to the game becoming successful since those games often suck if people don't team up)
yes but the absolute numbers don't matter because the grobot discord played it with friends, and members of the grobot internet forum are the real tastemakers, beyond even twitch streamers

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by the_zoomies » Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:41 am

Rylinks wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:15 pm
Skeletor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:43 pm
the_zoomies wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:22 am

You're the expert here, but this was really surprising to me.

Am I overrating my own experience here?

I had a tremendous time in a game I would _never_ have tried without friends. Card games are really sticky and really hard to get into, right?
you might be right as well, or neither of us could be right, it's always hard to guess what motivated something when you only see the result. but i'll infodump my thinking

i would expect among us to be on the top of any scrappy company's mind (which i assume SBB is) when working out how to get their little game to take off

among us was an accident, of course, but you can look at it and go, this two year old game totally took off when it started getting streamed, and it was streamed in this new way that other games haven't been, is there anything we can do enable this possibility? my take: among us just doesn't really work very unless you're playing over voice with people you know, so streamers needed to play with each other to play it. i think this made sort of a network effect within the streaming community; some giant streamer is on, they want to play with 9 other streamers, all with fewer followers of course. the lesser streamers are chomping at the bit to play in the game that has 60k viewers on the top stream, hopeful that some of those viewers will also end up following them. and the viewing experience was better, too, because you might want to switch between streams during the game to see who's the impostor, or maybe you specifically want to watch the impostor all the time, or whatever. then when the top streamer goes offline, the game continues, viewers can transition to someone they were already kinda watching. and a new streamer enters the arena, causing kind of a waterfall effect from the top streamers downward

i don't really think sbb has the right ingredients for this. for one, it has a ladder and it's totally fine to play without friends, so it's totally fine for streamers to play it normally, and in fact they're incentivized to do so in order to have an impressive leaderboard number. but it does resemble among us at least in that it's a compact, repeatable, somewhat short game that's fun to play with voice on, and that might be more fun as a viewer if you can switch between streams in the same game, even if not to the extent that among us is

ok, then on the flip side, why was i not really thinking of this feature as one that was pushed toward normal people playing with friends? basically because i think this almost never works. in my experience it's usually a vocally requested feature for games that almost nobody uses if the game is totally acceptable to play without friends. friend play does get used in games where the game sucks without friends, but in games where you can just jam whenever you want, i think these features just go unused. and i think it vexes developers, who would obviously love if people would play with their friends because that makes games both stickier and easier to on-board, but i think developers also mostly know that nobody's worked out a great way to get it to happen except in team games (where it's also a barrier to the game becoming successful since those games often suck if people don't team up)
yes but the absolute numbers don't matter because the grobot discord played it with friends, and members of the grobot internet forum are the real tastemakers, beyond even twitch streamers
Shame the devil that I would ask someone with more expertise than I about design/promotion decisions. :kiddo:

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Blissful » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am

good mongoose analysis sklebetor
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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Rylinks » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:08 pm

the_zoomies wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:41 am
Rylinks wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:15 pm
Skeletor wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:43 pm

you might be right as well, or neither of us could be right, it's always hard to guess what motivated something when you only see the result. but i'll infodump my thinking

i would expect among us to be on the top of any scrappy company's mind (which i assume SBB is) when working out how to get their little game to take off

among us was an accident, of course, but you can look at it and go, this two year old game totally took off when it started getting streamed, and it was streamed in this new way that other games haven't been, is there anything we can do enable this possibility? my take: among us just doesn't really work very unless you're playing over voice with people you know, so streamers needed to play with each other to play it. i think this made sort of a network effect within the streaming community; some giant streamer is on, they want to play with 9 other streamers, all with fewer followers of course. the lesser streamers are chomping at the bit to play in the game that has 60k viewers on the top stream, hopeful that some of those viewers will also end up following them. and the viewing experience was better, too, because you might want to switch between streams during the game to see who's the impostor, or maybe you specifically want to watch the impostor all the time, or whatever. then when the top streamer goes offline, the game continues, viewers can transition to someone they were already kinda watching. and a new streamer enters the arena, causing kind of a waterfall effect from the top streamers downward

i don't really think sbb has the right ingredients for this. for one, it has a ladder and it's totally fine to play without friends, so it's totally fine for streamers to play it normally, and in fact they're incentivized to do so in order to have an impressive leaderboard number. but it does resemble among us at least in that it's a compact, repeatable, somewhat short game that's fun to play with voice on, and that might be more fun as a viewer if you can switch between streams in the same game, even if not to the extent that among us is

ok, then on the flip side, why was i not really thinking of this feature as one that was pushed toward normal people playing with friends? basically because i think this almost never works. in my experience it's usually a vocally requested feature for games that almost nobody uses if the game is totally acceptable to play without friends. friend play does get used in games where the game sucks without friends, but in games where you can just jam whenever you want, i think these features just go unused. and i think it vexes developers, who would obviously love if people would play with their friends because that makes games both stickier and easier to on-board, but i think developers also mostly know that nobody's worked out a great way to get it to happen except in team games (where it's also a barrier to the game becoming successful since those games often suck if people don't team up)
yes but the absolute numbers don't matter because the grobot discord played it with friends, and members of the grobot internet forum are the real tastemakers, beyond even twitch streamers
Shame the devil that I would ask someone with more expertise than I about design/promotion decisions. :kiddo:
skeletors post is great im just making jokes about how cool everyone here is

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Blissful » Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:06 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:15 pmyes but the absolute numbers don't matter because the grobot discord played it with friends, and members of the grobot internet forum are the real tastemakers, beyond even twitch streamers
this is a common but understandable misconception it is actually me, specifically
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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Yoss » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:32 am

I'm starting to make myself pick more open heroes (or w/e they're called), because if I pick a narrow one I feel like I have to force that gimmick no matter what and then if I don't roll that thing, welp

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Yoss » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:57 am

Also, think balance is kind of off in that some early treasures snowball certain strategies way harder than they should imo

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Skeletor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:37 am

the only real balance issue i have is that there's too many heroes that aren't very strong
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Blissful » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:29 am

Yoss wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:32 am I'm starting to make myself pick more open heroes (or w/e they're called), because if I pick a narrow one I feel like I have to force that gimmick no matter what and then if I don't roll that thing, welp
i sort of felt this way too at first but now i feel like if gepetto wins me like two or three brawls ever with the ability he's earned his keep and im content to just roll the bones and let the cards pull me where they may
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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Blissful » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:29 am

Yoss wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:57 am Also, think balance is kind of off in that some early treasures snowball certain strategies way harder than they should imo
which treasures are these ones?
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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Blissful » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:31 am

monster book and bounty board have been really hilarious for me lately but only because im playing stupid wall dracula instead of a normal build
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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Khaos » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:36 pm

Yoss wrote:I'm starting to make myself pick more open heroes (or w/e they're called), because if I pick a narrow one I feel like I have to force that gimmick no matter what and then if I don't roll that thing, welp
yoss we did a 7-person in-house game the other day

we need you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Khaos » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:37 pm

Blissful wrote:
Yoss wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:57 am Also, think balance is kind of off in that some early treasures snowball certain strategies way harder than they should imo
which treasures are these ones?
ring of meteors, hat ball, maybe?

im fine with them

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Ashenai » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:45 pm

Blissful wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:31 am monster book and bounty board have been really hilarious for me lately but only because im playing stupid wall dracula instead of a normal build
Bounty board used to be much worse with old dracula, it was just way too much.

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Skeletor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:34 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:45 pm
Blissful wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:31 am monster book and bounty board have been really hilarious for me lately but only because im playing stupid wall dracula instead of a normal build
Bounty board used to be much worse with old dracula, it was just way too much.
old dracula you got like 3 gold and new one with the dumb wall build you get like 5-7 though?

maybe i just don't know what you mean by "worse", i'm assuming that meant stronger. i guess i can't tell what you're expressing here
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Doug » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:37 pm

I like the two-brain avatar but I'm not sure what's going on with it
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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Ashenai » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm

Skeletor wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:34 pm
Ashenai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:45 pm
Blissful wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:31 am monster book and bounty board have been really hilarious for me lately but only because im playing stupid wall dracula instead of a normal build
Bounty board used to be much worse with old dracula, it was just way too much.
old dracula you got like 3 gold and new one with the dumb wall build you get like 5-7 though?

maybe i just don't know what you mean by "worse", i'm assuming that meant stronger. i guess i can't tell what you're expressing here
Old Dracula routinely got 8-12 gold with it in the midgame once you got your baba yagas online.

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Skeletor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:55 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 pm
Skeletor wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:34 pm
Ashenai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:45 pm

Bounty board used to be much worse with old dracula, it was just way too much.
old dracula you got like 3 gold and new one with the dumb wall build you get like 5-7 though?

maybe i just don't know what you mean by "worse", i'm assuming that meant stronger. i guess i can't tell what you're expressing here
Old Dracula routinely got 8-12 gold with it in the midgame once you got your baba yagas online.
hm. seems like that'd still be the case if you put baba behind it. i guess you need to triple baba to get multiple babas

bounty board on turn 2 with new drac makes a lot of early gold that makes it pretty easy to find shadow assassin
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Skeletor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:56 pm

Doug wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:37 pm I like the two-brain avatar but I'm not sure what's going on with it
got a brain for a heart. i used this avatar a long time ago, it's from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7iVsdRbhnc
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Yoss » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:05 pm

Blissful wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:29 am
Yoss wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:32 am I'm starting to make myself pick more open heroes (or w/e they're called), because if I pick a narrow one I feel like I have to force that gimmick no matter what and then if I don't roll that thing, welp
i sort of felt this way too at first but now i feel like if gepetto wins me like two or three brawls ever with the ability he's earned his keep and im content to just roll the bones and let the cards pull me where they may
No, I agree that this is proper mindset but I have a hard time audibling out of the gameplan my hero is built around. This is a me problem, not the game.

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Yoss » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:06 pm

Blissful wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:29 am
Yoss wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:57 am Also, think balance is kind of off in that some early treasures snowball certain strategies way harder than they should imo
which treasures are these ones?
Off-hand, the Slay ones seem insanely snowbally. The you only need two dwarves to upgrade seems nuts too, although that's a 4 treasure. Maybe like the spell combo ones at 3? I don't remember many of the names for stuff.

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Yoss » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Khaos wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:36 pm
Yoss wrote:I'm starting to make myself pick more open heroes (or w/e they're called), because if I pick a narrow one I feel like I have to force that gimmick no matter what and then if I don't roll that thing, welp
yoss we did a 7-person in-house game the other day

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I'm down, invite me next time

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Khaos » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:08 pm

ok but what if snowballing rules

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Yoss » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:19 pm

Khaos wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:08 pm ok but what if snowballing rules
I mean okay but for who

Like I had a prince/princess board the other day that was easily 3x as powerful as everyone else in the lobby. I guess at least that game ended pretty fast? Can't imagine it was very fun for them

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Khaos » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:25 pm

when i lose a game of SBB to an insane deck i would say it has literally zero effect on how much fun i had that game

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Skeletor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:23 pm

bad moon is pretty snowbally (+1/+2 on slay)

idunno though, the game has a bunch of different snowbally things that start at different times and peter out at different times. i think that's a lot of what the game is, working out how long you go down the current path vs starting a new one
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Skeletor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:35 pm

right now i think both dwarves and prince/princess get outscaled by a lot of stuff late game. you will probably see more of that the more you play. i think the late game is very much about getting very strong treasures that combine with level 6 characters. prince/princess easily transitions into good boy shenanigans, for example. dwarves doesn't really have a smooth transition but i think at some point on the ladder dwarves stops winning by itself and just becomes a strong mid-game thing to have while you find something stronger to switch to
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Boring Book Boar

Post by Fry Guy » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:37 pm

Got into the beta so the qualifier competitors can practice on the upcoming patch before monday. Frustrating that it still counts as ranked though, so testing stuff out has dropped me a couple hundred just seeing what's what. It doesn't make any sense to me that it would count as ranked but it does.

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