pokemons

for all things digital animal fighting

Shitposting, Video Games, Manga, and Anime

Moderator: Wumpy

User avatar
Faceless
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3271
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Faceless » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:09 pm

The AI in the raid battles (combined with the various mechanics like catch rates and empty raid lobbies from resets which encourages using the AI) is what I'd personally point to as the biggest flaw
"Ireland’s Ireland and Scotland’s Scotland anyone who thinks different is a cunt" - Liam Gallagher

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:13 pm

well, the way the game refuses to refresh other peoples raids popping up (i think one of the things youre saying) feels like more of an execution flaw to me than a game design one. or, rather, it is not a part of the game i am talking about (competitive battling). if we are including that in "game design" i agree wholeheartedly.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:15 pm

it really boggles my mind how a company as big as nintendo, with an ip as big as pokemon, managed to bungle the online portion so completely. it is really the worst execution of an online component of a game i can recall in the last 10 years.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:18 am

nintendo bungles every online right

User avatar
Faceless
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3271
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Faceless » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:53 am

seathesee wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:43 pm
Juri wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:22 am You're absoluely right that the state of the under the hood systems is better and more easy to use than ever, my issue is that its still the same underlying system, which is such a mess that making it more accessible is kind of a bandaid. It's good all the same, but what the system really needs is a more sweeping structural streamlining
i guess im kind of on the fence about this. i was just thinking the other day it would be nice if mons had another sot of nature-esque thing to allow for more customization. you gotta do something to push it away from rock paper scissors and allow it to be a serious competitive thing.

wrt streamlining, i can agree with this in some respects. like, make ivs out of 15 or [smaller than 31 number]. make evs and ivs not hidden numbers. make it easier to set the exact evs you want. etc.

im not sure id want to get rid of evs or ivs or egg moves or hidden abilities or whatever. they make the mons unique, rare, special.
Pokemon has IVs hidden but has the current stats (as a product of base stats, modifiers, and level) shown which is significantly better than the PoGo system of explicitly telling you the exact 0-15 IV stat but not telling you that the base stat this is being added to is ~200 or that your pokemon's level scales the stats or even that your pokemon has a level.

People see their Mewtwo with only a 10 attack IV (which gives it a total of 310 attack as opposed to a perfect 315) and decide to instead use their perfect Kyogre that's half the level.
"Ireland’s Ireland and Scotland’s Scotland anyone who thinks different is a cunt" - Liam Gallagher

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:44 pm

the biggest flaw is that you can't protect very large moves wtf

User avatar
Crunchums
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 16115
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Crunchums » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:57 pm

they're just too large
u gotta skate

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:00 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:44 pm the biggest flaw is that you can't protect very large moves wtf
you can.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:25 pm

not with normal protect

User avatar
Crunchums
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 16115
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Crunchums » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:37 pm

duh - you need very large protect
u gotta skate

User avatar
Faceless
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3271
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Faceless » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:05 pm

the biggest flaw is that Very Very Bigge Grimmsnarl has the Ragnaros problem of silly legs
"Ireland’s Ireland and Scotland’s Scotland anyone who thinks different is a cunt" - Liam Gallagher

User avatar
Faceless
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3271
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Faceless » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:07 pm

Although I hope they allow Very Very Bigge in competitive because there's some great visuals there (see also Megas and Sinnohs)
"Ireland’s Ireland and Scotland’s Scotland anyone who thinks different is a cunt" - Liam Gallagher

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:10 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:25 pm not with normal protect
i dont think im being pedantic in pointing out you literally can use protect against dynamax moves, and also that the protect will prevent most, but not all, of the damage from the dynamax move, but maybe i am.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:24 pm

seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:10 pm
Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:25 pm not with normal protect
i dont think im being pedantic in pointing out you literally can use protect against dynamax moves, and also that the protect will prevent most, but not all, of the damage from the dynamax move, but maybe i am.
i don't think it's irrelevant but since the very large pokemon still gets the secondary effect it makes protect pretty bad since they can still get a bunch of stat boosts or weather or whatever.

The reason i say it's a design flaw is that it's like, okay you make this cool new thing. At some point you notice that an existing thing is strong against the cool new thing you just made. At this point you might think, "oh no! players will be upset if their very large moves are blocked by protect" and give your new thing a special exception. But having counterplay against your new thing is very important! if you make special exceptions whenever something is "too good" against the new mechanic you will not make a balanced metagame.

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:25 pm

making special exeptions is also objectionable for aesthetic reasons too

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:26 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:24 pm But having counterplay against your new thing is very important!
there is counterplay, though! aside from a very large pokemon using protect, there are also dig style moves--they even added one this generation (phantom pursuit).
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:27 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:24 pm But having counterplay against your new thing is very important!
there is counterplay, though! aside from a very large pokemon using protect, there are also dig style moves--they even added one this generation (phantom pursuit).

edit: ok the move is called "phantom force" and it was evidently noty added this generation, but the point remains.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:28 pm

unless something has changed since i last played dig style moves are bad. you need counterplay that is good.

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:29 pm

maybe rather than existing mechanics i should say existing strategies? you cannot make your new thing good against everything people are currently using, because "new thing" + "narrow counter to new thing" isn't a very good metagame

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:30 pm

the dynamax mechanic made them better, is the thing. its a quasi-buff to those moves. youre going to see a dynamax every single fight, and the dig moves are the best counter to a dynamaxed pokemon. its actually kind of good design, or uh...game editing (?), imo.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:36 pm

if people are using otherwise bad moves to stop your new mechanic i would say that is itself evidence of a problem

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:38 pm

like, your new thing should just be a thing. it should not be The Most Important Thing That All Pokemon Battles Are About Now

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:45 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:36 pm if people are using otherwise bad moves to stop your new mechanic i would say that is itself evidence of a problem
well, to take it back to the magic comparison, i think usually people celebrate when new cards are printed that make previously garbage tier cards playable. i thyink thats whats going on here.

like, dig and phantom force are not inherently bad moves. phantom force is a 10 pp 90 base dmg 100% accuracy ghost type move--thats pretty good in the abstract! it even goes through protects and ignores evasiveness. its almost op but for its drawback of taking two turns. phantom force was a hammer in a game filled with screws. of course hammer is bad in that metagame. dynamax added some nails to the game. thats a good thing. thats good design.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:46 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:38 pm like, your new thing should just be a thing. it should not be The Most Important Thing That All Pokemon Battles Are About Now
well i dont disagree about that. i think the jury is still sort of out on that one, and i personally lean towards dynamaxing not being The Most Important Thing That All Pokemon Battles Are About Now. if it ends up being that, though, thats not good.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:47 pm

it's completely different from what's going on here! people celebrate when a knight enabler makes their previously unplayable knight good. people do not celebrate when a new magic card requires people to maindeck narrow and otherwise bad answers to stop it

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:50 pm

and tbh given the long list of other special immunities very large pokemon have, if dig is a viable answer to them it's only because gamefreak overlooked it

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:50 pm

i just went over how the move is not inherently bad. its only bad because of metagame things. like, abrupt decay is bad card in a metagame where noone plays permanents under 4 mana. elderspell is a bad card in a metagame where noone plays planneswalkers. they converted a pre-existing tool that had no great use (arguably that is the bad game design) into something that had a use and was worth a consideration.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Crunchums
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 16115
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Crunchums » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:51 pm

seathesee wrote:i just went over how the move is not inherently bad. its only bad because of metagame things.
thinking face emoji
u gotta skate

User avatar
Rylinks
her skirt got quite a lot smaller,
but her heart is still the same
size it was before
Forum Elf
Posts: 12359
Joined: Jun 13, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:52 pm

seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:50 pm i just went over how the move is not inherently bad. its only bad because of metagame things. like, abrupt decay is bad card in a metagame where noone plays permanents under 4 mana. elderspell is a bad card in a metagame where noone plays planneswalkers. they converted a pre-existing tool that had no great use (arguably that is the bad game design) into something that had a use and was worth a consideration.
when wizards printed the artifact lands they converted oxidize into something that had use and was worth consideration

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:53 pm

Crunchums wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:51 pm
seathesee wrote:i just went over how the move is not inherently bad. its only bad because of metagame things.
thinking face emoji
what?
with love, your good friend, seathesee

Post Reply